There’s an uncomfortable truth lurking in the conversation around ethics, governance, and corporate responsibility: most leaders only think about accountability when they’re forced to. By then, it’s usually too late.

For Andy Norris, that’s the crux of the issue. Accountability, he argues, doesn’t start with frameworks, board charters, or glossy ESG reports. It starts with people. And more often than not, it starts with childhood.

“The lessons we absorb about fairness, right and wrong, and responsibility — they shape every decision we make, whether we’re conscious of it or not,” says Andy.

It’s an insight born not from textbooks, but from a career that’s spanned the operational trenches to the boardroom. Andy has worked with multinationals, advised on governance across sectors, and seen firsthand how flimsy accountability mechanisms can be if the foundations aren’t there.

🚧 The Flaw in Modern Governance

In today’s corporate landscape, governance often feels like a checklist. Diversity targets? Ticked. ESG policy? Published. Whistleblower hotline? Installed.

But as Andy points out, “You can have all the policies in place, but if people don’t truly feel responsible for their actions — if accountability isn’t part of the culture — those mechanisms collapse under pressure.”

It’s not about removing structures, but understanding their limits. Real change starts earlier, deeper.

🛠 Building a Culture of Pre-Boardroom Accountability

So how do organisations embed this ethos? Andy suggests three starting points:

✅ Values before policies: Hire for integrity, not just technical skills.
✅ Reward the uncomfortable: Celebrate those who raise concerns, even when it’s awkward.
✅ Model it at every level: Leaders set the tone — not with slogans, but with actions.

It sounds simple. It isn’t. It requires what Andy calls “the courage to care,” a willingness to have the difficult conversations long before crisis hits.

⚡ The Business Case for Ethical Foundations

Beyond the moral imperative, Andy is clear: ethical leadership isn’t just about ‘doing the right thing’ — it’s commercial common sense. Organisations built on genuine accountability attract better talent, weather reputational storms, and create long-term value.

“The companies that succeed,” Andy explains, “are the ones where responsibility isn’t an add-on — it’s part of the DNA.”

FINAL THOUGHT

In a world obsessed with quick fixes and external validation, Andy Norris offers a refreshing — and necessary — reminder. Responsibility doesn’t start in the boardroom. It starts long before.

The real challenge? Having the humility, at every level, to accept that.

Her new venture—S4: the Secret Society of Sustainability Spies—isn’t a stunt. It’s a philosophy: train people at all levels to embed sustainability into their everyday decisions, no job title required.

“If companies won’t go to sustainability, sustainability must go to the company—whether they want it or not.” — Magali

🕵️‍♀️ Changing the System Quietly

As Holcim’s first Chief Sustainability and Innovation Officer, Magali helped shape the cement industry’s first net-zero commitment and aligned executive pay to ESG metrics. But the CSO role, she says, is being hollowed out—stuck in reporting loops, isolated from the business’s core.

That’s why she’s turning toward “systemic subversion.” The new goal? Empower procurement officers, engineers, and marketers to push change from within—what she calls changing your job without telling anyone.

“Sustainability isn’t a job title. It’s a way of working.”

🧠 Why the CSO Role Isn’t Working

Magali is blunt about the burnout plaguing sustainability leaders. When asked why, she doesn’t hesitate:

“Too many CSOs are doing reporting instead of reshaping business models. That’s like asking a CEO to focus only on financial disclosures.”

Her solution: embed ESG where the power is—finance, operations, product. The job of a CSO should be to make themselves obsolete.

“The goal is for the CSO role to disappear because everyone is doing the job.”

🧱 Building Holcim’s ESG Edge

During her time at Holcim, Magali led some of the boldest moves in the building materials sector:

• The first net-zero pledge validated by SBTi

• Integration of nature targets into business strategy

• Launch of the Roof Over Our Heads campaign to house 1 billion people

But for all the public wins, her focus was always internal: realigning incentives, simplifying systems, and rooting sustainability in business logic.

“We treated sustainability like a business transformation—not a comms campaign.”

🔮 From Oil Rigs to Boardrooms

Magali’s career began in oil and gas. She doesn’t hide it; she embraces it.

“I don’t feel guilty. Guilt locks the past. I use it to unlock the future.”

That honesty fuels her mission now: to help professionals everywhere reframe their roles, histories, and power to act.

✨ If She Had a Magic Wand…

No jargon. No tech. Just this:
Tie executive bonuses to long-term ESG metrics.

“You can’t ask factory workers to care about sustainability if their bosses aren’t paid to care.”

Will isn’t just another voice in the ESG crowd. He’s been on the inside, designing sustainability strategy, engaging boards, and wrestling with the brutal complexity of telecom supply chains. And he’s refreshingly honest about what does and doesn’t work.

“The target’s just the start. It’s the action behind it that matters.”

In conversation, Will makes a compelling case: true progress demands that we escape our own organisational silos and rethink where value actually comes from—often in places overlooked by traditional ESG frameworks.

💡 Forget the Net Zero Checklists—Think Industry-Wide Standards

During his time at TalkTalk, Will led efforts that cut emissions by 58% in just four years. But he’s quick to point out that individual corporate action isn’t enough.

“We had to look beyond the four walls of the company. That meant getting competitors, regulators, and suppliers around the table.”

That effort led to one of the most ambitious initiatives in UK telecoms: a cross-sector collaboration representing £50 billion in annual revenue. The goal? Create minimum joint standards to address Scope 3 emissions—a problem that no single firm can solve in isolation.

Key Outcomes:

• 85% of suppliers (by spend) now have science-based targets

• A roadmap for reducing upstream emissions shared across the industry

• Ongoing work with Ofcom to align regulatory frameworks with sustainability priorities

This isn’t ESG as branding. It’s ESG as systems change.

🧠 Why ESG Reporting Misses the Point (and What to Do Instead)

Will’s critique of standard ESG reporting is incisive. He doesn’t reject it outright—but he’s sceptical of the weight it carries in decision-making.

“Reporting on ESG metrics is often about satisfying frameworks. But that doesn’t necessarily lead to change.”

So what does?

• Board-level engagement that links sustainability to commercial risk

• Simplicity and clarity over 80-page reports

• A shift from defensive disclosures to forward-looking strategy

His approach also included mandatory ESG training for TalkTalk employees and Carbon Literacy Training—a first in the sector.

🌐 What’s Next: A Commercial Lens on Sustainability

After nearly 12 years at TalkTalk, Will is shifting his focus to consultancy, bringing a commercial mindset to ESG challenges in other industries. He sees massive untapped potential for mid-sized firms—too often overlooked in policy discussions.

“The companies that are going to move the dial are those that see sustainability not as a cost, but as a catalyst.”

And as he explains, today’s sustainability professionals aren’t simply under-resourced. They’re tasked with being polymaths—strategists, diplomats, auditors, and ethicists—all under growing scrutiny and with shrinking support.

“Sustainability is like a Swiss Army knife. It does a little bit of everything,” Jack says. “But unfortunately, it always seems to be the department that gets its legs chopped off first.”

🛠️ The Rise—and Frustration—of the Corporate Generalist

Jack’s journey began not in a boardroom, but in the wilds of the UK’s Peak District, where childhood experiences in nature formed the roots of his professional ethos. After studying zoology and later earning a master’s in environmental technology at Imperial College London, he entered the workforce at a time when sustainability wasn’t yet codified—it was a curiosity, a cost, or a PR side note.

Now, two decades on, Jack is deeply embedded in the inner workings of ESG governance. But the job has changed. Dramatically.

Sustainability teams are, he argues, often the first to face cuts. And even when intact, their scope is impossibly broad:

• Ensure compliance with a shifting regulatory landscape.

• Build internal cross-departmental governance systems.

• Communicate externally with credibility and legal precision.

• Shape long-term strategy while responding to daily crises.

All with skeleton staff, tight budgets, and intensifying political pressure.

“We’re expected to be crystal ball mind readers, functional experts, accountants, legal gurus—literally everything under the sun.”

⚖️ Green Hushing, Political Polarisation & the Ethics of Silence

One of the most revealing parts of Jack’s conversation centres on communication—or the growing reluctance to do so. Reflecting on a 2023 Axios article about the trend towards subtler ESG messaging, Jack doesn’t dispute the phenomenon, but he adds a more human angle.

Green hushing, he argues, can be soul-destroying. Not just because it silences companies, but because it silences the people within them trying to do the right thing.

“Not being able to say something can be heartbreaking. There aren’t many regular places for people in sustainability to get their stories across.”

This isn’t about silencing fluff—it’s about losing the stories and case studies that drive peer-to-peer innovation and cross-sector learning. And while Jack believes internal collaboration will endure, he warns that without external communication, public understanding will continue to fragment.

“We need to encourage better decision-making by consumers. We can only do that if we talk and engage and communicate.”

🧭 The Say-Do Gap & Brand Activism

Jack’s insights into brand alignment are refreshingly nuanced. While there’s clear fatigue with companies hopping on every social cause, Jack resists the idea that corporates are purely cynical or performative.

He identifies a more structural problem: companies are increasingly reactive—nudged by NGOs, employees, trade groups, even rivals—into engagement. That’s not inherently bad. But it raises big questions:

• Are we aligning with this issue because we believe in it, or because we fear being left behind?

• Do we have the systems, strategy, and budget in place to act on it?

• Will this be a sustained commitment or a one-month campaign?

“There needs to be a little more pragmatism and seriousness about what the company is going to be able to do before it says what it’s going to do.”

Jack isn’t calling for less ambition—he’s calling for more integrity.

🎯 The Magic Wand? Give Sustainability the Tools It Needs

Asked what he’d do with a magic wand, Jack doesn’t hesitate. He wouldn’t conjure up more pledges or frameworks. He’d give sustainability professionals what most already have to beg for: adequate resources.

“I’d wish my colleagues had the tools, the budgets, the buy-in. We can’t keep expecting strategic transformation from underfunded teams.”

It’s not just a plea for fairness—it’s a warning. Without structural investment, the very people tasked with delivering long-term value will burn out before they ever reach the summit.

“You don’t have to have sustainability in your title to be a sustainability professional.”

This episode delivers one of the most practical, nuanced, and insightful explorations to date of how the sustainability movement has evolved—and what organisations consistently get wrong when building their teams.

The Turning Point: When Ethics Met Enterprise

Ellen didn’t always plan to work in sustainability. As a student, she had her sights set on becoming a stockbroker—until a trip to post-Berlin Wall Poland changed everything. Witnessing educated families struggle with food rationing and clothing scarcity, she realised the power business could have in driving positive social impact.

“I wanted to help. I said, I want to do good with business.”

That insight led to her first informal case of “cause marketing”: importing hand-knit sweaters from Polish women and reselling them at a markup, with profits returned to the community. It wasn’t just smart—it was ethical entrepreneurship in action.

From Cameroon to Corporate Boardrooms

Ellen joined the Peace Corps in Cameroon, working with coffee co-operatives and woodcarvers, deepening her understanding of trade, fairness, and international development. This foundation became the launchpad for a sustainability consultancy career, with roles at Levi Strauss, HP, the World Bank, and more.

But a piece of advice changed her trajectory again: “You need to niche.” Recognising her talent for connecting people, Ellen launched Weinreb Group to specialise in one thing: placing changemakers in sustainability roles.

“We put changemakers to work.”

What’s Really Happening in the CSO Job Market?

Her firm’s flagship research—the Chief Sustainability Officer Report—tracks the evolution of CSOs in U.S. publicly traded companies. The 2025 edition found:

• 📊 CSO numbers have grown from 30 in 2011 to 220+ in 2025.

• ⚖️ Only 50% had sustainability in their prior job title—many came from legal, supply chain, or corporate affairs.

• 🧠 Top attribute for success? Being a “corporate chameleon.”

“You need at least one person to own it. Someone who can interpret the external world and influence internally.”

Common Mistakes Companies Make

Ellen was candid about where companies go wrong:

• Underestimating the role: “They think they can just hire a junior person. Then they realise, this is way bigger than anticipated.”

• Prioritising compliance over impact: “It’s easy to lose sight of strategy in the fog of regulation.”

• Not aligning with business strategy: “Sustainability has to make business sense. It’s not just philanthropy anymore.”

The Future of Sustainability Leadership

What skills will tomorrow’s CSOs need?

• Financial fluency: understanding the language of CFOs and audit teams

• Strategic systems thinking: balancing macro trends with granular data

• Internal diplomacy: navigating complex stakeholder ecosystems

• Adaptability: “Being a chameleon” across departments and agendas

“The CSO needs to speak the language of whoever they’re talking to—legal, finance, supply chain. It’s about embedding, not siloing.”

✨ Magic Wand Moment

If Ellen could change one thing in the commercial world?

“I’d give consumers full information. So they could make truly informed choices.”

It’s a deceptively simple goal—but one that underpins the entire ESG movement.

🏎 Formula One’s Race Towards Sustainability

Jamie’s career took a defining turn when he joined Honda Racing F1, a sport driven by milliseconds and cutting-edge innovation. While many industries hesitate to embrace sustainability due to concerns over cost and complexity, F1’s relentless pursuit of efficiency provided a unique testing ground.

🚀 Key Sustainability Challenges in F1:

• Carbon Fibre Waste: Unlike metals, carbon fibre is notoriously difficult to recycle, leading to excessive waste.
• Energy-Intensive Logistics: The sport’s global calendar requires frequent international transport, increasing emissions.
• High-speed R&D vs. Sustainability Priorities: Development cycles in F1 are lightning-fast, often leaving little room for long-term environmental considerations.

Rather than seeing these as roadblocks, Jamie recognised that the culture of optimisation in F1 could be leveraged to embed sustainability.

“In Formula One, innovation is non-negotiable. If you apply that same mindset to sustainability, you stop seeing it as a limitation and start seeing it as a way to push performance forward.”

Some of the key innovations he helped implement included:

✅ Carbon Fibre Recycling Trials – exploring methods to repurpose discarded materials.
✅ Waterless Vehicle Cleaning – reducing water use across logistics operations.
✅ Sustainable Branding – shifting team sponsorships towards companies with strong environmental credentials.

🔄 Bringing Circularity to Automotive Manufacturing

After F1, Jamie transitioned to Jaguar Land Rover, where the challenge was not speed, but scale. Unlike the bespoke world of motorsport, automotive production is about mass efficiency—meaning sustainability solutions need to work across millions of vehicles.

🌿 Key Circular Economy Strategies at JLR:

• Closed-loop aluminium recycling – melting down old vehicles to create new ones, reducing raw material demand.
• Lightweighting initiatives – using composite materials to lower vehicle weight and improve fuel efficiency.
• Reducing embodied carbon in interiors – incorporating sustainable textiles and recycled plastics.

“Sustainability at scale requires a different kind of engineering—one that considers the full lifecycle of a product, not just its performance on day one.”

This systems-thinking approach laid the groundwork for his next challenge: applying sustainability in an industry where durability and design reign supreme—luxury flooring.

🏢 Re-engineering Flooring for a Sustainable Future

Today, Jamie leads sustainability at Karndean Designflooring, a global leader in high-end vinyl flooring. Flooring presents a unique sustainability challenge: it needs to be durable, aesthetically flexible, and cost-effective—often conflicting with recyclability and material transparency.

🏗 Sustainability Challenges in Flooring:

• Plastics & Chemical Use – PVC-based products must meet high safety and durability standards while minimising environmental impact.
• End-of-life Waste – Most flooring materials are difficult to recycle due to adhesives and composite layers.
• Carbon Footprint – Reducing emissions across sourcing, manufacturing, and logistics.

To tackle these issues, Jamie is focused on:

✅ Developing closed-loop recycling schemes – ensuring old flooring products don’t end up in landfill.
✅ Innovating with bio-based materials – exploring alternatives to fossil fuel-derived components.
✅ Enhancing product transparency – giving consumers a clear understanding of material origins and impact.

Unlike industries where sustainability is externally mandated, Jamie is working to shift mindsets internally—making sustainability a proactive business advantage rather than a reactive compliance measure.

“If sustainability isn’t built into product design from the start, you’re always playing catch-up. We’re changing that.”

🎯 The Formula for Fast-Track Sustainability

Across F1, automotive, and flooring, Jamie’s approach remains the same:

🏁 Embed sustainability in R&D – don’t treat it as a bolt-on after products are developed.
🏁 Focus on efficiency gains – sustainability should drive business value, not just reduce impact.
🏁 Push for circularity – products should be designed with their end-of-life in mind.

His journey proves that the most competitive industries—those that move the fastest—can also lead the way in sustainability.

“Sustainability isn’t a barrier to performance. In fact, when done right, it drives better results across the board.”