Why this conversation matters

The word “sustainability” has become heavy. It carries too much emotion, too much politics, and not enough clarity.

As Rob Agnew puts it:

“The debate’s been hijacked by extremes. One side says it’s all doom; the other says it’s all nonsense. Most people are just trying to pay the bills.”

That middle ground, where practical progress actually happens, is where Rob and Cat Biggart spend their time. Both work in strategic communications and see the same pattern: companies either speak in jargon or go quiet out of fear. Neither helps anyone move forward.

How the story begins

Cat grew up outside Sydney, where she says she “spent more time saving bees from the pool than swimming.” She studied psychology and went into marketing, but the pull toward the natural world never left. That’s shaped how she sees business: as something that should support, not exploit, the environment it depends on.

Rob’s story starts on a small farm on the Bucks–Northants border.

“I saw what happens when environmental policy ignores people’s lives,” he says.

Later, in Texas, he watched communities wrestle with the economic side of the energy transition. Those experiences gave him a grounded view of what real responsibility looks like.

The turning point

For both, the turning point came when sustainability talk got louder, but less useful.

“We spent years appealing to emotion,” Rob says. “Now we need to appeal to reason.”

That doesn’t mean ditching ambition. It means showing what progress feels like in people’s lives. “Talk about the things they notice,” he says. “Lower bills, cleaner air, safer jobs. Not a 2035 target they can’t picture.”

Cat agrees:

“People tune out when the message feels abstract. They want to know, what’s this going to do for me, for my family, for my business?”

A practical kind of storytelling

Both believe the future of sustainability communication lies in honesty and proof. “Say what you’re doing, and show the results,” Cat says.

“If you missed a target, own it. People can handle bad news. What they can’t handle is spin.”

Rob’s rule is even simpler. “I’d ban most corporate words. The minute you sound like a press release, people stop listening.”

They describe good sustainability storytelling as “win-win-win”: good for business, good for people, and good for the planet. Not perfect, just real.

The moral tension: fear vs. responsibility

Many companies have pulled back from public sustainability talk. Some call it “green-hushing.” Cat sees the risk. “Silence isn’t neutral,” she says.

“If you stop talking, the loudest, most polarised voices fill the space.”

The fear of backlash has made brands cautious, but Rob argues that responsibility requires persistence. “If you believe in what you’re doing, explain it. Don’t hide behind silence. Find language that works.”

What gives hope

Both sense the conversation maturing. Sustainability is moving from marketing to management, from slogans to strategy. “We’re starting to see resilience replace rhetoric,” Rob says. “Businesses want to do what works, not what sounds good.”

Cat adds that younger communicators are bringing new energy.

“They care, but they’re also pragmatic. They know the world’s messy, and that’s okay. Progress doesn’t have to be perfect.”

The takeaway

Sustainability isn’t failing, it’s growing up. The next step is to make it understandable again. Speak plainly. Tell the truth. Admit the trade-offs.

As Cat puts it, “You can’t build trust with a slogan.” And as Rob reminds us:

“Responsibility starts when you stop talking to yourself.”

He knows the stakes. “Business has always had a purpose,” Andy says.

“The question is whether it serves a social need as well as a commercial one.”

That tension — between mission and margin — defines the hardest leadership choices.

When It Works: The Lifebuoy Example

The best case Andy knows is Lifebuoy soap. By embedding hygiene education into its business model, Unilever turned a bar of soap into a global health intervention. It was neither charity nor greenwash. “If it doesn’t connect to the business model, it’s just philanthropy,” Andy warns.

“And philanthropy is the first thing to go when times get tough.”

The lesson? Responsibility sticks when it strengthens, rather than competes with, commercial success.

The Trust Deficit

For today’s leaders, the bigger challenge is credibility. Decades of greenwashing have bred deep mistrust. “Most people think businesses are overstating their role in society,” Andy admits. “And often, they’re right.”

His advice is disarmingly simple: tell the whole truth. “Don’t just talk about what you’re doing well,” he says.

“Talk about what you’re not doing yet. People can forgive imperfection. They can’t forgive spin.”

The Missing Piece: Governance

Andy’s view of what unlocks real change is less about marketing brilliance than political clarity. “We shouldn’t pretend companies can do this alone,” he argues. Without governance — rules, standards, accountability — even the most committed leaders are undercut by competitors willing to cut corners.

That’s why, he insists, government must set the guardrails. Once the rules are clear, companies adapt quickly. Until then, purpose will always be at risk of being outpaced by profit.

What Leadership Demands

Andy’s reflections sketch a demanding picture of responsible leadership today:

• Integration — embedding social value in the business model itself.

• Honesty — admitting limits as well as achievements.

• Advocacy — pushing for governance that holds everyone to account.

They’re not slogans; they’re disciplines. And they remind us that the real test of leadership isn’t writing the purpose statement. It’s living with the trade-offs when markets, shareholders and society all demand different things at once.

That decision wasn’t born of sudden enlightenment. It was, as Kann describes, “an unpleasant epiphany.” Despite decades spent immersed in natural environments during his free time—diving, birdwatching, identifying flora—he had never connected his day job to the crises he deeply cared about. “It was embarrassing,” he says. “I was a cog in a system built on eternal growth at the cost of everything.”

Kann’s journey is a case study in the power of alignment. After leaving his agency, he joined sustainability communication firm Futerra. “It felt like walking into heaven,” he recalls, describing the excitement of collaborating with climate strategists and communication activists. For someone who once viewed advertising as “the highest level of cleverness,” this new chapter was about redirecting that cleverness towards survival.

From Fear to Worry: A New Emotional Lexicon

Central to Kann’s current mission is emotional literacy. Referencing Anna Townley’s earth.org article on emotional engagement in climate messaging, Kann zeroes in on a paradox: while fear can paralyse, “worry” motivates. “Worry creates support,” he says.

“Fear, when overused, leads to fatigue.”

He’s seen the arc first-hand. The early days of climate comms relied heavily on doom: melting glaciers, starving polar bears, flooded cities. While impactful, these fear appeals often backfired, overwhelming audiences. The lesson? Humans aren’t persuaded by science alone—we act when we feel. And the sweet spot is not terror, but tension. Worry, Kann argues, is just enough emotion to drive action without tipping into paralysis.

This insight aligns with behavioural psychology’s “Goldilocks principle”: too little emotion, and people shrug. Too much, and they shut down. But just the right amount—a simmering concern? That’s where change brews.

Killing the Cliché: Why Visual Language Matters

One of Kann’s most powerful critiques is aimed at sustainability’s visual status quo. “We’ve exhausted the tropes,” he says.

“Smiling families in green fields, hands cradling Earth—it’s all wallpaper now.”

He believes the biggest communications challenge isn’t inventing new facts—it’s disrupting stale aesthetics.

“The visuals need to change before minds do,” Kann argues. And he’s right: humans process images far faster than words, and emotional cues often come more from tone and imagery than rational argument. In this sense, sustainability comms isn’t just a content issue—it’s a design problem.

What Does Success Look Like Now?

For Kann, success is no longer measured in Cannes Lions or market share. “Success is making a real difference,” he says.

“It’s using creativity not for persuasion, but for transformation.”

His “magic wand” wish? A commercial world unshackled from short-termism. In such a world, brands would optimise for ecological continuity, not quarterly returns. “Nature restores quickly if you let it,” Kann notes. “But we need long-term thinking to let that happen.”

The question isn’t whether social media is broken. It’s whether we’ve built the right teams—and asked the right questions—to fix it.

In this episode, Josh pulls back the curtain on life at the intersection of behaviour, branding, and burnout. As Global Head of Social at HX Expeditions—and with previous stints leading Unilever’s global Beauty & Personal Care output and digital comms at Save the Children UK—Josh has lived the highs and lows of the industry. He’s delivered Cannes-worthy content for global names and absorbed frontline pressure in moments of humanitarian urgency. That breadth shapes a rare kind of perspective: part systems thinker, part empathetic operator.

What drives this conversation is a hunger to reframe how social platforms—and the organisations behind them—approach engagement. Anchored in a provocative research paper on “Pro-Social Media,” Josh discusses an alternative feed logic: one that surfaces content not by sheer popularity, but by contextual relevance. Who is engaging, and why? What cognitive diversity might we introduce to nudge us out of algorithmic comfort zones?

“The platforms are doing exactly what we trained them to do,” Josh notes. “They mirror our psychology—particularly our bias towards outrage. But we never asked what it’s costing us.”

The Quiet Cost of ‘Always On’

For Josh, the biggest blind spot isn’t the algorithm—it’s the culture.

Across both commercial and non-profit sectors, he’s seen how social media teams often become reactive fire blankets rather than trusted strategists. “Don’t talk to them unless something’s on fire—that’s the norm,” he says. “But that invisibility comes at a cost. It’s real emotional labour.”

His solution is disarmingly low-tech: presence.

“Support isn’t a Slack channel. It’s someone in the room. Literally. Someone who understands the pressure and can hold space when things go sideways.”

This isn’t a wishlist—it’s hard-earned realism. And it speaks to a deeper point in the episode: if social platforms are behavioural ecosystems, then so are the teams managing them. Ignoring their emotional bandwidth is a systemic flaw.

Impact as Accountability

Josh’s lens sharpened significantly during his time at Save the Children. “You couldn’t just run a campaign for engagement’s sake,” he reflects.

“You were telling real stories—often about children’s lives. The weight of that forces you to rethink what success looks like.”

It’s here that Josh draws a line between metrics and meaning. Behavioural insights, he argues, should serve as connective tissue between a brand and its broader responsibility—not just as a shortcut to higher reach.

This realignment, he believes, is where social can regain its humanity.

Designing for Better (Not Just More)

Despite his honest view of ad-driven platform logic, Josh remains hopeful. “We might not be able to change the revenue model overnight,” he concedes, “but we can change what we reward internally.”

That might mean celebrating content that slows people down. Or labelling stories in ways that encourage reflection over reaction. Or simply asking: what does meaningful engagement look like if it’s not just a click?

Josh’s closing reflections speak less to marketing KPIs and more to human priorities. He dreams of a world where ESG is tied to financial markets—and where parenting well is seen as a leadership trait.

“If someone looks back and says I helped them be better—at work or in life—that’s the goal.”

It’s not a rebrand of social media. It’s a re-humanisation.

📰 The Hidden Cost of “Safe” Advertising

For brands eager to protect their reputations, the use of automated blocklists—software that prevents ads from appearing next to controversial or “unsafe” content—can seem like a no-brainer. But Bryan argues that these tools may be creating bigger problems than they solve.

“Some blocklists are so outdated, they’re still excluding content with the word ‘Paris’—not because of the Olympics, but because of terrorist attacks from nearly a decade ago,” Bryan explains.

The result? Advertisers are inadvertently cutting off funding to high-quality journalism. That’s not just bad for news publishers—it’s bad for society.

🧠 Rewiring Media Thinking: Why Context Still Matters

Bryan’s team at Ozone has long championed the concept of the premium web—a digital space where content is curated, governed by editors, and subject to standards. In contrast to the “long tail” of clickbait and conspiracy blogs, this is the corner of the internet where trustworthy information still thrives.

“Our partners are handpicked. Every publisher we work with has editorial oversight and audience-first values,” says Bryan.

He believes this environment should be exempt from the blanket-style brand safety tools that treat all content the same. “If we don’t fix this,” he warns, “the flywheel breaks: less ad money means lower investment in journalism, less engagement, and a further drop in trust.”

📉 What’s at Stake if We Get This Wrong?

Without intervention, Bryan fears we may drift toward a two-tiered system: those who can afford quality news will pay for it; everyone else will get filtered narratives, algorithmic junk, or nothing at all.

“Everyone should have access to information that helps them make better decisions. Not just those who can pay,” he says. “We’re at risk of losing that.”

It’s not just a philosophical stance—it’s a commercial reality. Publishers need funding to survive. And brands benefit when consumers are reading content in engaged, credible environments.

📈 Responsible Advertising ≠ Lower ROI

Many advertisers avoid placing ads next to “hard news” content for fear of reputational damage. But research, including a study of over 70,000 participants by Stagwell (an Ozone partner), has shown that consumers are smarter than that.

“People can separate the news from the ad. Just because your ad is near a Trump tariff story doesn’t mean they associate you with that policy,” Bryan says.

In fact, when placed well, ads in trusted environments often perform better. Bryan references upcoming research with Bountiful Cow that will demonstrate how ads placed without brand safety restrictions performed just as effectively—if not more so.

🪄 The Bull** Barometer

Bryan’s magic wand moment? A reality check on corporate values.

“I’d love to invent a kind of BS Barometer—something that shows whether a company really lives its purpose, or whether it’s just jumping on a trend.”

He believes you can spot the difference in the hard choices: “If a brand sticks with its values when times get tough, that’s when you know it’s real.”

🧭 Final Thoughts: Finding the Ethical Edge in AdTech

For Bryan, the future of responsible marketing is a balancing act—doing what works and doing what’s right. Ozone is proving that you don’t have to sacrifice ethics to meet business goals. In fact, Bryan believes aligning values with performance is the key to long-term success.

“It’s not about guilt-tripping advertisers. It’s about showing them the results, and giving them a reason to feel good about it too.”

This conversation explores the uncomfortable space between progressive messaging and commercial interest—shedding light on why well-meaning marketing campaigns often backfire, and how a deeper understanding of cultural intelligence might be the missing link between purpose and authenticity.

🧭 From Insight to Impact

Kian’s background in both philosophy and marketing gives him a unique lens through which to interrogate the role of business in society. For him, the key shift is moving from insight to impact—and recognising that brand storytelling isn’t neutral.

“Marketing shapes culture and society. The stories brands tell influence behaviour, values, and even identity.”

Many brands claim to be purpose-led, but the gap between intent and execution often leads to reputational risk—or worse, social harm. “We’re seeing more brands get called out for performative campaigns. They say the right things, but their internal practices don’t match,” Kian notes.

That mismatch, he argues, stems from a failure to truly understand the cultures they seek to represent or support.

🌍 Cultural Intelligence: More Than Market Research

Kian believes that the future of ethical marketing lies in cultural intelligence—a practice that combines anthropology, philosophy, behavioural psychology and systems thinking.

“You can’t simply take a cultural insight, twist it into a campaign, and expect it to resonate. Culture isn’t a toolkit. It’s a relationship.”

His work with The People focuses on bridging the gap between brands and communities through long-term engagement—not just trend reports. That means working with cultural researchers, grassroots voices, and youth councils to co-create campaigns that reflect lived experience—not just aspirational messaging.

Some of the common mistakes brands make when attempting this include:

• ❌ Relying on tokenistic representation

• ❌ Using data to justify what they’ve already decided

• ❌ Prioritising short-term virality over long-term impact

“Just because something gets a lot of likes doesn’t mean it’s right,” Kian points out. “Metrics can often distract from meaning.”

💬 The Power of Listening (Not Just Talking)

One of the more surprising takeaways from Kian’s work is that the most powerful form of communication is listening.

“Brands think of storytelling as broadcasting. But real connection comes when you create space for dialogue. That means being willing to be wrong, to change course, and to elevate voices other than your own.”

This, he argues, is where many ESG or sustainability communications fall short. Organisations are quick to share their commitments, but slow to address critique. “There’s a fear of being exposed, so they stick to safe language. But safety often equals blandness. And that’s what people see through.”

🔮 What’s Next for Ethical Storytelling?

As younger generations demand more transparency and accountability from brands, the stakes for getting this right are only increasing.

Kian believes the next frontier lies in co-creation—not just hiring creatives to interpret purpose, but involving communities in shaping what that purpose looks like in practice.

He’s also interested in intergenerational leadership within the creative industries, helping younger thinkers drive change from within, rather than being relegated to advisory roles.

“True innovation often comes from the edge. From people who aren’t yet indoctrinated into how things ‘should’ be done.”

Final Takeaway 💡

Kian’s call to action is simple, yet radical:
Slow down. Listen deeply. Build with—not for—communities.
Because in the end, ethical marketing isn’t about having the loudest voice. It’s about having the most honest one.