With decades of real-world experience navigating journalism, regulation, and corporate affairs, Clayton brings a grounded but sharply insightful view on how companies must think about long-term value creation, resilience, and integrity in an increasingly sceptical world.

The Big Pivot: From Shareholder Value to Stakeholder Responsibility

“Purpose isn’t marketing. It’s not CSR. It’s not woke. Done properly, it’s a business strategy that drives performance.”

Clayton remarked, cutting through decades of corporate spin with refreshing clarity.

Once upon a time, Milton Friedman’s mantra — that a company’s sole responsibility was to increase profits — reigned supreme. But Clayton traces how the corporate landscape shifted, from the free-market fundamentalism of the 1980s to the cautious embrace of stakeholder capitalism post-2019, when 180 CEOs signed a statement redefining the purpose of business.

Yet, as Clayton warns, we’re now at a critical crossroads:

• Some firms are doubling down on purpose with authentic, business-aligned strategies.

• Others are retreating, green-hushing their initiatives out of fear of political backlash.

• And many, who only ever paid lip service to purpose, are quietly dropping the language altogether.

The risk? A two-speed world of business, where integrity becomes the ultimate differentiator.

Why Purpose-First Businesses Outperform

Clayton dives into the real, quantifiable advantages of purpose-led business models:

🔹 Employee Engagement: Workers connected to a higher purpose show 30% greater innovation rates, according to Deloitte.
🔹 Innovation: Purpose-driven companies are five times more likely to deliver breakthrough innovations (McKinsey).
🔹 Financial Performance: Firms with strong corporate purpose deliver annual equity returns 9% higher than their competitors.

And it’s not just about slogans or window dressing. As Clayton reminds us, quoting the famous NASA janitor story: “My job is to help put a man on the moon.” That alignment of personal contribution with a collective mission is where true engagement — and resilience — is built.

The Future of Corporate Purpose: Who Will Survive?

Looking ahead, Clayton outlines three distinct paths companies seem to be taking:

✅ Doubling Down: Organisations embedding purpose authentically into their core strategies, recognising the long-term business value.
⚠️ Rowing Back: Brands backtracking on their promises under market or political pressure.
❌ Dropping It Altogether: Those who treated purpose as a temporary marketing tool are now abandoning it.

He leaves us with a stark warning: in a world grappling with planetary crises, greenwashing and inauthenticity won’t just hurt reputations — they’ll destroy trust and erode long-term business viability.

“The world is watching more closely than ever,” Clayton says. “Businesses that aren’t radically transparent will get found out — if not today, then tomorrow.”

Final Word: The Magic Wand Question

If given a magic wand, Clayton would change two things:

• Encourage long-termism in business strategy.

• Demand authentic communications that truly reflect reality.

“We’ve seen too much hype and not enough honesty,” he concludes. “The companies that will thrive are those who match their words with real-world action.”

Their journey through design—spanning from childhood memories of carefully curated living rooms to pioneering work with The Body Shop and British standards committees—showcases a vital transition in the sector. At the core of the conversation? The need to redefine luxury, rethink material value, and resist the fast-paced consumerism that dominates the interiors industry.

But this wasn’t just a nostalgic stroll. Chloe and Matt laid out a tangible, exciting framework for the future—one that makes sustainability accessible, desirable, and even profitable.

🪑 The Case for Second-Hand Chic

If there’s one myth Matt and Chloe are keen to bust, it’s this: sustainable design isn’t shabby. Gone are the days of scratchy hemp sofas and mint-scented recycled toothbrush countertops.

“You wouldn’t be able to tell which ones are sustainable and which ones are not,” said Matt. “For a long time, you could… but now it’s getting sophisticated.”

In today’s high-end interiors, second-hand doesn’t mean second-best. With the right approach, it becomes a storytelling tool, a way to connect clients with a space that’s rich in meaning and light on the planet.

Matt’s approach?
✅ Reupholster existing furniture with natural fillings
✅ Use an Owner & Maintenance (O&M) manual to ensure longevity
✅ Highlight resale potential to clients (“buy better, buy less”)

📦 Design with Purpose, Not Just Purchase

As Chloe puts it:

“We are fixated on this ownership. Not only are we fixated on new, we’re fixated on owning things.”

The episode spotlights an important design pivot: shifting from a consumption-driven model to a sharing and service economy. Whether it’s renting pieces to follow a trend, rethinking furniture as a service, or investing in timeless designs, there’s real power in shifting mindsets before shifting materials.

🔁 Circularity isn’t just about materials—it’s about thinking.

🔍 Eleven Ways to Rethink Sustainability

In her book Sustainable Interior Design, Chloe lays out eleven focused approaches that interior designers can use to bring sustainability into their practice. From reuse and vegan design to ethical business and regenerative principles, the idea is simple: you don’t need to do everything, but you do need to start somewhere.

“Pick a path. Focus on one thing. You’ll pick up others as you go.”

Some of her pathways include:

• ♻️ Reuse & refurbishment: Keeping what already exists in use

• 🌿 Biophilic & healthy building: Creating spaces that support physical and emotional wellbeing

• 🛠️ Ethical supply chains: Demanding transparency and accountability from upstream partners

• 🌱 Regenerative design: Going beyond “less bad” to create net-positive impact

💼 Profitability vs Sustainability? Or Both?

There’s no denying that sustainability takes time. More time to source, more time to research, and more time to educate clients.

So, is it worth it?

Matt thinks so:

“Yes, it might take more of your time… but it provides you with a story that you can tell about the work you’re doing. That’s the value add.”

For commercial clients, storytelling feeds into brand strategy. For residential clients, it’s about emotional durability—having a chair that carries family history instead of a barcode. And for interior designers, these stories build reputation, credibility, and demand.

🧠 Magic Wand Moments

We asked our guests: if you could change one thing about the commercial world instantly, what would it be?

Matt’s wish: Incentivise sustainable behaviour through education and economic mechanisms—think bottle deposit schemes, but for interiors.
Chloe’s wish: For corporate leaders to truly care—to stop waiting for regulation and instead embrace sustainability as an internal drive, not an external demand.

🔮 What’s Next?

As Chloe puts it:

“We’re in a ‘less bad’ place right now, not a regenerative one. But it won’t take too long.”

With design collectives, industry bodies, and designers themselves increasingly joining forces—from Interior Design Declares to BIID’s sustainability resources—the momentum is building.

If interior designers can shift from passive providers to active educators and advocates, the possibilities are endless. As Chloe and Matt showed, there’s space for every designer to have an impact—whether you’re sourcing antique chairs, setting fire safety standards, or simply telling better stories.

In a wide-ranging and personal conversation, Kieran reflects on the formative power of advertising, the significance of authentic representation, and how his work at The Alchemist and KG Hospitality shows that purpose-driven marketing is not just relevant for hospitality — it’s urgently needed. But this isn’t another ‘do good, feel good’ piece. It’s a case study in what happens when marketing gets personal, brands listen, and meaningful change follows.

🎯 The Central Issue: Marketing’s Missed Opportunity in Hospitality

Hospitality, Kieran argues, has lagged behind other sectors in addressing the social expectations of modern consumers. For too long, he says, the industry rewarded unsustainable cultures of overwork and ignored the power of brand voice to shape broader societal norms.

“Hospitality is notorious for being an industry where ethics don’t historically go hand in hand. Seventy-hour weeks used to be worn as a badge of honour — that needs to change.”

The challenge? Hospitality brands have often underestimated the power of their platforms. Unlike tech or fashion, they haven’t traditionally seen themselves as vehicles for social good. But the influence is there — in community spaces, team cultures, social media feeds, and the everyday choices of diners and drinkers.

🌈 Case Study: Turning a Pride Cocktail Into a Year-Round Commitment

One standout example Kieran shares is how a seasonal Pride campaign at The Alchemist became a long-term partnership with the Albert Kennedy Trust — raising more than £80,000 for LGBTQ+ youth.

“It started as just a cocktail for Pride weekend. But it didn’t sit right — it wasn’t giving anything back. So we made it year-round. That small change turned into a real, consistent commitment.”

It’s a powerful illustration of what genuine alignment looks like. Not rainbow logos in June, but embedded action across the calendar.

🧠 Key Takeaways: Building Authentic Purpose into Hospitality Marketing

Kieran doesn’t mince words when it comes to how brands should approach purpose:

✅ Be consistent, not convenient

• Purpose isn’t a seasonal trend. If you’re going to support a cause, back it up year-round.

• Don’t just celebrate International Women’s Day or Pride Month; ask who’s missing and what comes next.

✅ Know when (and why) to speak

• Silence can be deafening. But jumping on every issue risks cause-washing.

• Ask: Do we have a right to be in this conversation? Are we listening to the right voices internally?

✅ Invite accountability

• Transparency is power. Sharing what you’re not yet doing well can disarm critics and build trust.

• “Own your mistakes,” Kieran says. “People value brands who say: we got this wrong, and here’s what we’re doing to fix it.”

💼 Internal Impact: Culture, Belonging and Retention

It’s not just about customer perception. Kieran highlights the internal impact of ethical marketing, especially in a high-turnover sector like hospitality.

He shares how initiatives like Currency of Kindness — where staff were paid to volunteer for a day — built loyalty and gave team members a sense of purpose beyond their job roles.

“When people feel like they’re heard, when their lived experience shapes brand decisions — that’s where true belonging starts.”

This emphasis on internal alignment speaks to a broader trend: younger employees expect their employers to reflect their values. And they’re not afraid to walk if they don’t.

🚩 The Risk of Getting it Wrong

Kieran doesn’t shy away from the complexities. He recalls a moment where a menu item was called out for cultural appropriation — and how the team used it as a learning opportunity.

“We owned it. We listened. And we put in place an educational process for the future. That’s how you grow as a brand.”

The lesson? Mistakes are inevitable. But crisis can be a catalyst — if handled with honesty and humility.

🔮 Kieran’s Magic Wand: Rethinking Who Gets a Seat at the Table

If given the power to change one thing about the corporate world?

“I’d eliminate the systemic biases in hiring and leadership. Too many head offices still look and sound the same. We need class, race, gender and orientation diversity — not just in who we hire, but who we promote.”

He makes the case not just as an ethical imperative — but as a strategic one.

🎤 Final Word

Kieran’s journey — from a billboard-obsessed child to a boundary-pushing marketing lead — shows just how powerful the right stories, told well, can be.

But more than that, it’s a reminder that brands — especially in sectors like hospitality — can do more than sell. They can represent, challenge, reflect and evolve.

As Kieran puts it:

“We’re connecting with people. So people are investing in us. We have to invest in them.”

Why We Blame Ourselves Instead of the System

The idea that poor diet is a matter of weak willpower is one of the most successful PR campaigns ever run. Instead of holding corporations accountable for flooding supermarkets, schools, and social media with ultra-processed foods, the focus has been shifted onto individuals:

• If you’re struggling with weight, you must not be trying hard enough.
• If children are developing diet-related illnesses, parents must be failing them.
• If obesity rates are rising, people just need more education.

Nicki pointed out how this mirrors the tactics once used by Big Tobacco, where for years, cigarette companies deflected blame by focusing on “smoker choice” while suppressing evidence of the harm they were causing.

“It’s exactly the same playbook,” Nicki explained.

“For decades, food companies have positioned themselves as passive providers, simply offering what people demand—when in reality, they’ve spent billions engineering products, advertising, and environments that drive those demands.”

The result? A society where junk food dominates, and consumers are made to feel personally responsible for the consequences.

How Big Food Designs the Perfect Trap

Food corporations don’t just rely on advertising to shape habits—they engineer the entire environment to make unhealthy choices the default:

✔ Supermarket layouts – Essential foods are harder to find, while impulse-buy junk is placed at checkouts, aisle ends, and eye level.
✔ Targeted marketing – Brightly colored cereals with cartoon characters are deliberately placed at children’s eye level to lure them in.
✔ Pricing tricks – Processed food is priced artificially low, while fresh produce is kept expensive and often poorly promoted.
✔ Social media influence – Junk food brands saturate platforms like TikTok and Instagram, embedding their products into viral culture.

“Just walk through a supermarket and look at what’s happening,” Nicki urged.

“You’ll see kids being drawn to the brightest, most aggressively marketed products—the ones with the most sugar, salt, and additives. And then we blame parents when their kids prefer junk over fresh food.”

Weight-Loss Drugs: The Perfect Distraction

One of the most revealing points Nicki made was how Big Pharma and Big Food now operate in tandem—one selling the problem, the other selling the “solution.”

“The rise of Ozempic and Wegovy—weight-loss drugs that suppress appetite—is a perfect example of how the system is designed,” Nicki said.

“Rather than fixing the food environment that creates these issues, we’re now medicating the symptoms.”

While there’s a place for medical interventions in extreme cases, Nicki warned against normalising them as a long-term fix.

“We’re telling people, ‘Don’t worry about the food industry flooding the market with addictive ultra-processed foods—you can just take a drug later.’ That’s insane.”

This shift also protects corporations from scrutiny. Instead of tackling how companies are profiting from ill health, public debates focus on individual choices—whether someone should take a weight-loss drug or whether parents should “just say no” to junk food.

“The food system is broken by design, and these companies know it,” Nicki said. “But as long as they can keep the conversation about personal responsibility, they can keep selling the problem and the so-called solutions.”

What a Fair Food System Should Look Like

Nicki isn’t just calling out the problem—she’s pushing for real solutions. At Bite Back, the campaign she leads alongside young activists, the goal is to rewrite the rules and make the food system work for people, not corporations.

So what would a fair food system look like?

✔ No junk food ads targeting children – The way we banned cigarette ads, we should restrict marketing that deliberately hooks kids into unhealthy eating habits.
✔ Honest food labelling – No more misleading packaging that makes sugary, processed foods look healthy.
✔ Supermarket reform – Essential foods should be more accessible than ultra-processed junk, not the other way around.
✔ A shift in government policy – Just as regulations forced the tobacco industry to clean up, governments should hold food giants accountable.

“This is not about banning treats or policing what people eat,” Nicki clarified.

“It’s about stopping companies from manipulating consumers into thinking they’re making free choices when, in reality, the deck is stacked against them.”

The Tipping Point: Why Change Is Coming

The good news? The tide is turning.

Five years ago, few people were questioning the systemic nature of our food crisis. Now, there’s growing awareness that the issue goes beyond personal choice.

Nicki’s own campaign, Bite Back, has been disrupting food industry marketing by buying up advertising space so that junk food companies can’t. “We’re literally blocking these brands from reaching kids in certain areas,” she said.

“And the response from the public has been overwhelmingly supportive.”

She also sees increased scrutiny from lawmakers, with sugar taxes and advertising bans being seriously discussed in the UK and beyond.

“People are starting to see through the spin,” Nicki said.

“For the first time, the conversation is shifting from ‘Why don’t people just eat better?’ to ‘Why is the system set up this way in the first place?’”

And that, she believes, is the first step to real change.

Final Thought: The Food System Doesn’t Have to Stay Broken

Nicki’s message is clear: The way we talk about diet, obesity, and health needs to change. Instead of blaming individuals, we must hold the right people accountable—the corporations designing our food environment and governments allowing them to get away with it.

“This is a problem we can fix,” she concluded.

“But only if we stop looking at individuals and start looking at who really benefits from the status quo.”

The real question isn’t whether people should eat healthier—it’s why the system makes it so hard to do so.

Early Lessons in Resource Consciousness

Anne’s first brush with sustainability came during her childhood in Germany. “I didn’t know the word ‘sustainability’ as a nine-year-old,” she admitted, “but I observed how meticulous people were about conserving resources. You paid for ketchup, received just one napkin, and lined up to recycle your bottles. It was a culture of diligence.”

Returning to Taiwan, Anne saw the early stages of Taipei’s recycling revolution. “Taiwan had a serious trash problem,” she recalled.

“The government introduced an incentive system—recycling was free, but throwing away trash required purchasing official bags. It was fascinating to see an entire society shift its behavior.”

These early experiences fostered a deep awareness of material consumption and waste, themes that would resonate throughout her career.

Urban Planning: A Gateway to Sustainability

Anne’s interest in sustainability took root in university when she pivoted from business to urban planning.

“I realised that how cities are designed profoundly impacts how people live,” she explained.

Studying in the car-centric United States, Anne became passionate about creating walkable, transit-friendly cities that encourage sustainable lifestyles.

Her academic journey also included stints in Morocco and France, where she broadened her understanding of urban development and public policy. However, it was a final-year course on CSR that shifted her focus to the corporate world. “The idea that companies like Walmart could influence entire supply chains to be more sustainable fascinated me,” she said.

Bridging Academia and Corporate Action

After graduating, Anne faced the harsh realities of starting a career in sustainability during the 2008 financial crisis. “It wasn’t easy finding sustainability jobs back then, both because the field was still maturing and because of the economic climate,” she explained. Determined to gain foundational knowledge about corporate operations, Anne took on diverse roles over the next four years.

“I worked in audit at KPMG, explored business philanthropy with a foundation, and handled compliance for a chip design company preparing for its IPO,” she recounted. These roles gave Anne a comprehensive understanding of how corporations operate, even though they weren’t directly tied to sustainability.

“Because I still wanted to continue in the sustainability trajectory, I decided to go back to graduate school.”

At Columbia University, Anne pursued a master’s degree in environmental science and policy, equipping herself with tools to drive corporate sustainability. “Columbia was where I developed the skills to connect sustainability with business impact,” she said.

Anne then joined EcoVadis in Paris, a leading sustainability rating company. “For five years, I assessed the ESG performance of companies worldwide,” she shared.

“It was rewarding but isolating—I craved more interaction with people.”

To broaden her horizons, Anne earned an MBA from INSEAD. “The MBA expanded my understanding of business strategy and helped me integrate sustainability into global operations,” she noted.

Making Sustainability Tangible

Anne’s subsequent roles at Bureau Veritas and Dun & Bradstreet provided her with platforms to make sustainability actionable. As Global ESG Product Lead at Bureau Veritas, she spearheaded the development of a digital sustainability management tool. Later, as Head of ESG at Dun & Bradstreet, she shifted to a go-to-market and sales function.

“These roles showed me how important it is to make sustainability examples as concrete as possible,” Anne said. She emphasised the need for clarity in training teams and creating tools that make ESG accessible and impactful.

“Sustainability can feel abstract. The key is showing how actions—like cutting emissions or improving supply chain transparency—connect to measurable outcomes.”

A Shift in Focus: Returning to Asia

While a planned project in Saudi Arabia didn’t come to fruition, a recent family accident prompted Anne to re-evaluate her priorities. “After spending two-thirds of my life abroad, I realised it’s time to be closer to home,” she shared.

Anne is now focusing her energy on impactful sustainability projects and roles closer to Taiwan and the rest of Asia, a region where sustainability is still maturing but rapidly growing in key sectors. “I want to be closer to my family while contributing to sustainability efforts in the region,” she explained.

“Besides my day-to-day work, I also hope to introduce zero waste food and personal hygiene products, which are still rare in Taiwan.”

Conclusion: A Global Citizen’s Call to Action

Anne Huang’s journey illustrates the power of diverse experiences in shaping a holistic approach to sustainability. From recycling lines in Germany to corporate boardrooms in Paris, she has championed a pragmatic, people-focused approach to solving global challenges.

Her message is clear: sustainability isn’t a one-size-fits-all solution. It requires collaboration, innovation, and a commitment to bridging cultural and systemic gaps. As Anne puts it,

“Every step we take matters. And when we align our actions with our values, the impact can be extraordinary.”

From Niche to Necessity: The Evolution of Sustainability Recruitment

Jack recounted his journey into the sustainability space, starting from a moment of uncertainty when he was first assigned to sustainability recruitment. “I didn’t even know what sustainability was at the time,” he admitted, “but I quickly realised how integral it is to every facet of a business.”

Over the past eight years, Jack has witnessed a significant shift.

“When I started, sustainability roles were project-based and often isolated. Now, they’re integral to operations, finance, marketing, and beyond.”

This evolution mirrors a broader recognition that sustainability isn’t just a box to tick but a fundamental business function.

The Green Skills Gap: A Communication Challenge

One of the most pressing issues Jack discussed was the green skills gap—a lack of talent with the expertise to navigate the complex landscape of sustainability. Interestingly, he argued that the gap isn’t just about technical skills. “The biggest gap isn’t in reporting or regulatory knowledge; it’s in softer skills like communication and stakeholder engagement,” he explained.

Jack highlighted the importance of influencing sceptical stakeholders.

“Sustainability professionals often need to convince people—CFOs, boards, investors—that sustainability is not just a cost but a value-creating opportunity.”

This ability to communicate effectively and inspire action is where many candidates struggle, he noted.

Authenticity Over Perfection

Jack also touched on the prevalence of “green hushing,” where companies underreport their sustainability efforts for fear of criticism or accusations of greenwashing. This, he argued, is counterproductive both for businesses and the candidates they aim to attract.

“Sustainability professionals don’t expect perfection. What they want is honesty about where a company is in its journey.”

He encouraged organisations to embrace their “clumsy phase” in sustainability. “Mistakes are inevitable,” he said. “But those mistakes lead to solutions. Being upfront about challenges can actually attract innovative, creative talent who want to help solve them.”

Building Purpose-Driven Cultures

For Jack, sustainability recruitment isn’t just about filling roles; it’s about creating cultures where sustainability is part of every employee’s role. He shared the example of organisations tying sustainability goals to performance incentives, such as bonuses.

“When sustainability becomes part of the company’s DNA, it’s no longer a separate agenda—it’s just how business is done.”

He also urged companies to look inward before hiring externally. “There are often people within organisations who are passionate about sustainability but haven’t had the opportunity to get involved. Engaging these individuals can be just as impactful as bringing in new talent.”

Looking Ahead: A Call to Action

As the conversation wrapped up, Jack shared his vision for the future of sustainability recruitment.

“It’s about getting everyone to see their role in sustainability, no matter how small. Whether you’re a junior analyst or a CEO, you’re contributing to the bigger picture.”

Jack’s insights underscore the transformative power of recruitment in shaping a sustainable future. By prioritising authenticity, fostering communication, and recognising the value of every individual’s contribution, businesses can bridge the green skills gap and build teams capable of driving real change. As Jack put it, “We’re not going to get everything right, but we have to start somewhere—and that somewhere begins with the people we bring on board.”