“You don’t have to have sustainability in your title to be a sustainability professional.”

This episode delivers one of the most practical, nuanced, and insightful explorations to date of how the sustainability movement has evolved—and what organisations consistently get wrong when building their teams.

The Turning Point: When Ethics Met Enterprise

Ellen didn’t always plan to work in sustainability. As a student, she had her sights set on becoming a stockbroker—until a trip to post-Berlin Wall Poland changed everything. Witnessing educated families struggle with food rationing and clothing scarcity, she realised the power business could have in driving positive social impact.

“I wanted to help. I said, I want to do good with business.”

That insight led to her first informal case of “cause marketing”: importing hand-knit sweaters from Polish women and reselling them at a markup, with profits returned to the community. It wasn’t just smart—it was ethical entrepreneurship in action.

From Cameroon to Corporate Boardrooms

Ellen joined the Peace Corps in Cameroon, working with coffee co-operatives and woodcarvers, deepening her understanding of trade, fairness, and international development. This foundation became the launchpad for a sustainability consultancy career, with roles at Levi Strauss, HP, the World Bank, and more.

But a piece of advice changed her trajectory again: “You need to niche.” Recognising her talent for connecting people, Ellen launched Weinreb Group to specialise in one thing: placing changemakers in sustainability roles.

“We put changemakers to work.”

What’s Really Happening in the CSO Job Market?

Her firm’s flagship research—the Chief Sustainability Officer Report—tracks the evolution of CSOs in U.S. publicly traded companies. The 2025 edition found:

• 📊 CSO numbers have grown from 30 in 2011 to 220+ in 2025.

• ⚖️ Only 50% had sustainability in their prior job title—many came from legal, supply chain, or corporate affairs.

• 🧠 Top attribute for success? Being a “corporate chameleon.”

“You need at least one person to own it. Someone who can interpret the external world and influence internally.”

Common Mistakes Companies Make

Ellen was candid about where companies go wrong:

• Underestimating the role: “They think they can just hire a junior person. Then they realise, this is way bigger than anticipated.”

• Prioritising compliance over impact: “It’s easy to lose sight of strategy in the fog of regulation.”

• Not aligning with business strategy: “Sustainability has to make business sense. It’s not just philanthropy anymore.”

The Future of Sustainability Leadership

What skills will tomorrow’s CSOs need?

• Financial fluency: understanding the language of CFOs and audit teams

• Strategic systems thinking: balancing macro trends with granular data

• Internal diplomacy: navigating complex stakeholder ecosystems

• Adaptability: “Being a chameleon” across departments and agendas

“The CSO needs to speak the language of whoever they’re talking to—legal, finance, supply chain. It’s about embedding, not siloing.”

✨ Magic Wand Moment

If Ellen could change one thing in the commercial world?

“I’d give consumers full information. So they could make truly informed choices.”

It’s a deceptively simple goal—but one that underpins the entire ESG movement.

🏎 Formula One’s Race Towards Sustainability

Jamie’s career took a defining turn when he joined Honda Racing F1, a sport driven by milliseconds and cutting-edge innovation. While many industries hesitate to embrace sustainability due to concerns over cost and complexity, F1’s relentless pursuit of efficiency provided a unique testing ground.

🚀 Key Sustainability Challenges in F1:

• Carbon Fibre Waste: Unlike metals, carbon fibre is notoriously difficult to recycle, leading to excessive waste.
• Energy-Intensive Logistics: The sport’s global calendar requires frequent international transport, increasing emissions.
• High-speed R&D vs. Sustainability Priorities: Development cycles in F1 are lightning-fast, often leaving little room for long-term environmental considerations.

Rather than seeing these as roadblocks, Jamie recognised that the culture of optimisation in F1 could be leveraged to embed sustainability.

“In Formula One, innovation is non-negotiable. If you apply that same mindset to sustainability, you stop seeing it as a limitation and start seeing it as a way to push performance forward.”

Some of the key innovations he helped implement included:

✅ Carbon Fibre Recycling Trials – exploring methods to repurpose discarded materials.
✅ Waterless Vehicle Cleaning – reducing water use across logistics operations.
✅ Sustainable Branding – shifting team sponsorships towards companies with strong environmental credentials.

🔄 Bringing Circularity to Automotive Manufacturing

After F1, Jamie transitioned to Jaguar Land Rover, where the challenge was not speed, but scale. Unlike the bespoke world of motorsport, automotive production is about mass efficiency—meaning sustainability solutions need to work across millions of vehicles.

🌿 Key Circular Economy Strategies at JLR:

• Closed-loop aluminium recycling – melting down old vehicles to create new ones, reducing raw material demand.
• Lightweighting initiatives – using composite materials to lower vehicle weight and improve fuel efficiency.
• Reducing embodied carbon in interiors – incorporating sustainable textiles and recycled plastics.

“Sustainability at scale requires a different kind of engineering—one that considers the full lifecycle of a product, not just its performance on day one.”

This systems-thinking approach laid the groundwork for his next challenge: applying sustainability in an industry where durability and design reign supreme—luxury flooring.

🏢 Re-engineering Flooring for a Sustainable Future

Today, Jamie leads sustainability at Karndean Designflooring, a global leader in high-end vinyl flooring. Flooring presents a unique sustainability challenge: it needs to be durable, aesthetically flexible, and cost-effective—often conflicting with recyclability and material transparency.

🏗 Sustainability Challenges in Flooring:

• Plastics & Chemical Use – PVC-based products must meet high safety and durability standards while minimising environmental impact.
• End-of-life Waste – Most flooring materials are difficult to recycle due to adhesives and composite layers.
• Carbon Footprint – Reducing emissions across sourcing, manufacturing, and logistics.

To tackle these issues, Jamie is focused on:

✅ Developing closed-loop recycling schemes – ensuring old flooring products don’t end up in landfill.
✅ Innovating with bio-based materials – exploring alternatives to fossil fuel-derived components.
✅ Enhancing product transparency – giving consumers a clear understanding of material origins and impact.

Unlike industries where sustainability is externally mandated, Jamie is working to shift mindsets internally—making sustainability a proactive business advantage rather than a reactive compliance measure.

“If sustainability isn’t built into product design from the start, you’re always playing catch-up. We’re changing that.”

🎯 The Formula for Fast-Track Sustainability

Across F1, automotive, and flooring, Jamie’s approach remains the same:

🏁 Embed sustainability in R&D – don’t treat it as a bolt-on after products are developed.
🏁 Focus on efficiency gains – sustainability should drive business value, not just reduce impact.
🏁 Push for circularity – products should be designed with their end-of-life in mind.

His journey proves that the most competitive industries—those that move the fastest—can also lead the way in sustainability.

“Sustainability isn’t a barrier to performance. In fact, when done right, it drives better results across the board.”

💡 From Tech Corporates to Purpose-Driven Innovation

Julien’s story is one of progressive realisation — sustainability was not always the primary focus, but it became the driving force behind Advizzo’s creation.

👉 Early career in corporate tech giants like Oracle — focused on product, sales, and process-heavy work.
👉 A pivotal shift came when Julien joined Opower, a pioneering US energy efficiency startup, which opened his eyes to purpose-driven technology.
👉 Inspired, Julien co-founded Advizzo in 2015 — focusing on helping utilities and their customers reduce water and energy consumption using behavioural science and smart data.

“We didn’t just build a platform — we built a whole new segment in water efficiency, where few were focusing back then.”

⚡️ The Reality of Building a Sustainable SaaS Startup

Julien was refreshingly candid about the realities of founding a sustainability-focused startup. Far from the glamorous tech unicorn narrative, his story highlights the grit required to survive.

Key Challenges Faced:

💰 Raising money with no product — “We went unpaid for eight months, with no salary, building out of nothing.”
😓 Stress and health impacts — “There was a point where the pressure to meet payroll landed me in the hospital. No entrepreneur talks about that enough.”
⚖️ Balancing product innovation with regulatory navigation — Sustainability isn’t just about having a great product; you need the policy landscape to align too.

“Startups in sustainability often forget — the best product in the world won’t succeed if the regulatory environment isn’t pushing the market in the right direction.”

🛠️ Building in a Market That Doesn’t Exist

A recurring theme was the sheer difficulty of creating a market from scratch. Water efficiency wasn’t high on the agenda when Advizzo started, so Julien and his co-founder had to educate, advocate, and sell all at once.

🚧 Barriers they faced:

👉 Lack of awareness in the UK about the importance of behavioural water saving.
👉 Minimal regulatory support compared to energy efficiency, which already had established mandates in the US.
👉 Resistance from utilities that saw behavioural programmes as a ‘nice to have’ rather than essential.

“We were asking utilities to invest in saving water — a resource they are used to billing for. That’s a difficult cultural shift.”

⚖️ Regulation: The Underrated Growth Driver

Julien spoke at length about the role of regulation in sustainability success. Advizzo’s growth accelerated when:

👉They hired a regulatory expert to help shape water-saving policy in the UK.
👉They aligned Advizzo’s value proposition directly to emerging regulatory requirements.
👉They understood that policy shifts create whole new revenue streams for startups if you position yourself correctly.

“Regulation creates the conditions for growth — without it, you’re trying to sell innovation to customers who aren’t required to change.”

🚀 Pro Tip: If you’re building a sustainability business, embed regulatory engagement into your business plan from day one.

🔍 Learn from Others: Embracing ‘Graveyard Diligence’

A standout takeaway was Julien’s use of ‘graveyard diligence’ — a term coined in a fashion sustainability article, which he wholeheartedly embraced.

💀 What it means: Actively studying why similar startups failed and using that intelligence to shape your own approach.

“We saw US startups drowning in endless pilots — never reaching scale. So we deliberately moved to full-scale projects, even if they started small.”

✅ Key Learnings from Competitor Failures:

• Avoid over-reliance on short-term pilots.
• Focus on landing longer-term contracts.
• Build tech that adapts to evolving regulations.
• Don’t chase grants that create false markets.

🔄 The Emotional & Practical Realities of Exit

Julien was open about the emotional complexity of selling Advizzo after nearly a decade of building the company.

⚙️ Why Sell?

• A new round of funding (Series B) would require another five years of high-intensity scaling.
• Joining a larger company (Calisen Group) provided access to sales teams, infrastructure, and complementary products, enabling faster market access.
• Calisen’s existing focus on smart metering and decarbonisation aligned well with Advizzo’s mission.

🧠 The Transition Experience

“It’s a weird adjustment going from being in control to being part of a larger machine. The stress doesn’t disappear, it just changes shape. The hardest part was letting go — trusting others to understand what made Advizzo successful.”

🚀 Despite the challenges, Julien sees partnership with Calisen as a smart, values-aligned route to scale.

✨ Final Reflection: What Needs to Change in Sustainable Business?

When asked the magic wand question, Julien’s answer wasn’t about faster exits or better funding — it was about impact.

“The biggest frustration was knowing we could do so much more — but being limited by short-term corporate thinking and lack of regulatory urgency.”

🔥 Julien’s Wish for the Future:

👉Faster, more ambitious regulation that drives sustainability initiatives forward.
👉Corporate leaders who genuinely understand that long-term value comes from embedding sustainability, not treating it as optional.

“We didn’t just want to make money — we wanted to save water, improve resilience, and leave a positive legacy. That’s what sustainability startups should be aiming for.”

🎯 Key Takeaways for Sustainability Founders

✅ Embrace regulatory strategy — don’t just build product, shape the market.
✅ Study why similar startups failed — don’t repeat the same mistakes.
✅ Build for long-term partnerships, not quick wins.
✅ Accept stress as part of the process — but find ways to manage it.
✅ Stay true to your impact mission — but be commercially smart about how you achieve it.

Julien’s journey through the trenches of sustainable entrepreneurship offers a goldmine of practical insight for anyone looking to launch or scale a purpose-driven business. As Julien put it:

“You don’t build a sustainability startup to make millions. You do it to make a difference — but that doesn’t mean you can ignore the business fundamentals.”

Governance: The ESG Factor That Holds Everything Together

Many companies treat governance as an afterthought, focusing on sustainability commitments without embedding accountability structures that make them stick. But Rob argues that strong governance is what determines whether ESG is meaningful or just words on a page.

“If you’ve got the right tone from the top, then all sorts of good things can be done in the environmental and social space. If you don’t have that, you’re going to struggle.”​

Too often, governance reacts to pressure instead of driving long-term strategy. Without leadership commitment, sustainability goals become vulnerable to financial or political shifts.

ESG in Emerging Markets: A Higher Standard is Expected

A common excuse for weak ESG performance in emerging markets is that local regulations don’t demand higher standards. But according to Rob, this mindset is no longer acceptable:

“The expectation is that companies will operate to the highest standards they know of—wherever they’re working.”​

This means businesses must take the lead in raising local standards, rather than just meeting minimum legal requirements.

One example is worker welfare. In many markets, wage disparities exist—but that doesn’t justify poor working conditions.

“Just because you’re not paying workers the same salary doesn’t mean they shouldn’t expect dignity, quality accommodation, and a safe environment.”​

Companies that fail to uphold these standards face increasing scrutiny from investors, employees, and civil society—regardless of where they operate.

Decision-Making in Governance: The Three-Question Test

One of the most practical governance frameworks Rob encountered was a three-question test used by senior leadership at Shell:

“For every major decision, we were encouraged to ask: Is it legal? Is it ethical? Is it wise?”​

✔ Legal – The basic compliance check.
✔ Ethical – Requires engaging stakeholders to determine what’s right.
✔ Wise – Considers long-term consequences—how the decision will be judged in years to come.

“Something that is acceptable today might be unacceptable a decade from now.”​

This forward-looking perspective is critical, particularly for companies operating in industries facing high scrutiny, rapid policy changes, or shifting public sentiment.

Why Weak Governance Leads to ESG Failures

Final Thoughts: Governance as a Competitive Advantage

From Academia to Industry: Learning to Lead and Influence

Bernie’s career began in academia, where he built a reputation as a leading researcher in physical chemistry. However, it was his transition to industry—first with Standard Oil of Ohio and later with BP—that shaped his approach to leadership. He explained;

“In academia, you have to persuade colleagues to join your vision. Industry taught me how to influence and drive change at scale.”

One pivotal moment came when BP shifted its focus from simply complying with environmental laws to actively reducing emissions. “This was a massive mindset shift,” Bernie recalled. “We moved from saying, ‘We’ll follow the law,’ to asking, ‘How can we continuously improve and reduce our impact?’ That was transformative, not just for the company but for me personally.”

Materials and the Engine of Development

Bernie’s latest book, The Material Advantage, explores how nations have historically achieved prosperity by mastering materials science and manufacturing.

“It’s not just about raw materials; it’s about transforming them into something valuable,” he explained.

Bernie used South Korea as an example, detailing how the nation transitioned from post-war devastation to economic power by focusing on education and scaling key industries.

However, Bernie warned that material innovation must align with sustainable principles. He highlighted food packaging as a cautionary tale: while it initially reduced waste and improved global access to food, its overuse has now become a significant environmental issue. “We need to rethink packaging entirely—dematerialising where possible and making better use of resources,” he said.

Governance: A Holistic Approach to Sustainability

At the heart of Bernie’s vision for a sustainable future is a fundamental shift in corporate governance. He proposed a model where customers—not traditional boards—govern companies. “Imagine a water utility governed by its customers,” he suggested.

“These stakeholders would prioritise decisions that balance economic, environmental, and social impacts.”

This idea aligns with the principles of sustainable development, which Bernie defines as living within environmental limits, building equitable economies, and fostering participatory governance. “Sustainable development isn’t just about the environment,” he stressed.

“It’s about creating systems that work for people, profit, and the planet.”

Learning from Failure and Arrogance

Reflecting on his time in the oil and gas industry, Bernie acknowledged the duality of success and failure. “Arrogance is a dangerous byproduct of success,” he said, citing the Gulf of Mexico oil spill as a cautionary example.

“When organisations believe they can do no wrong, they stop questioning themselves. That’s when things go awry.”

This humility has informed Bernie’s current roles on corporate boards and in venture capital, where he focuses on fostering accountability and continuous improvement. “Good governance means asking hard questions and making decisions that aren’t just about short-term gains but long-term impact.”

The Future of Sustainable Development

Looking ahead, Bernie sees an urgent need to address material waste in construction, food packaging, and manufacturing. He pointed to innovative companies like QFlow, which helps reduce construction waste, as examples of how industries can lead the way in sustainable practices.

But Bernie’s ultimate vision is broader: a world where governance, innovation, and sustainable development are fully integrated. He said;

“If we want to tackle climate change and build a just society, we need to rethink not just what we do but how we do it.”

Conclusion: A Visionary Call to Action

Bernie Bulkin’s career offers a roadmap for how leadership, governance, and innovation can intersect to create meaningful change. From influencing BP’s approach to emissions reduction to rethinking how materials drive development, Bernie’s contributions have left a lasting impact.

His message is clear: sustainability isn’t just a technical challenge—it’s a governance challenge. By reimagining how companies are led and how resources are used, we can build a future that prioritises equity, resilience, and long-term prosperity.

Lessons from Sweden: Collaboration Over Competition

Growing up in Sweden, Malin was immersed in a culture that values collective progress over individual achievement. She explained, “In Swedish schools, children are taught in mixed-ability groups. The idea is to collaborate with those who think differently from you. If you’re ahead, you help others catch up, and in doing so, you learn empathy and problem-solving.”

This approach, Malin argued, has broader implications for corporate structures.

“In Scandinavia, companies are less hierarchical. Decisions take longer because everyone’s input is valued, but once a decision is made, implementation happens quickly because everyone is already on board.”

Malin sees parallels between these cultural values and the ethos of B Corporations, of which Hattrick is a certified member. “When I discovered B Corp, it felt like coming home. It’s about recognising that great ideas can come from anywhere and working interdependently rather than hierarchically.”

Breaking Down Barriers to Honest Conversations

One of the recurring themes in Malin’s career is the need for honesty in corporate sustainability efforts. She recounted how many organisations struggle to balance ambition with authenticity.

“Businesses often set ambitious net zero targets but don’t know how to achieve them. This creates fear—fear of being called out for greenwashing or not making enough progress.”

Malin highlighted the importance of creating environments where employees feel empowered to ask questions and challenge claims without fear of repercussions. “If we want organisations to succeed in sustainability, we need to remove the fear of getting it wrong. Everyone makes mistakes. What’s important is that we learn from them and move forward.”

The Role of Carbon Literacy

At Hattrick, Malin has pioneered carbon literacy training as a tool for building awareness and engagement within organisations. The training equips teams with the knowledge to understand their role in the transition to sustainability.

“When we train leadership teams first, they see both the risks and opportunities. Then, when the training is rolled out across the organisation, it empowers employees to take ownership of the company’s sustainability goals.”

Malin shared an example of a company where sustainability training had a transformative effect. “After the training, employees began pushing the leadership to accelerate progress. It was no longer just the responsibility of the sustainability team—it became a shared mission.”

The Danger of Greenhushing

Malin also touched on the growing trend of greenhushing, where companies avoid publicising their sustainability efforts for fear of criticism. “Greenhushing creates an atmosphere of mistrust. If employees sense a lack of transparency, it erodes confidence in leadership. The opposite—openly acknowledging challenges and areas for improvement—builds trust and engagement.”

She believes that embracing imperfection can be liberating for organisations.

“No company is fully sustainable, and admitting that is powerful. It allows you to speak confidently about your progress while being honest about where you need to improve.”

A Magic Wand for Corporate Culture

When asked what she would change about the corporate world, Malin’s answer was clear: honesty.

“We need to stop pretending we’re further along than we are. If we start having honest conversations, we’ll move so much faster.”

She likened this shift to her experiences in Swedish schools, where collaboration and mutual support were the norm. “If we bring that mindset into the corporate world, where everyone is willing to help each other succeed, the progress we can make is incredible.”

Building a Culture of Shared Responsibility

Malin’s insights offer a roadmap for companies looking to embed sustainability into their operations. By fostering collaboration, embracing transparency, and investing in education, businesses can create cultures where sustainability is not an obligation but an opportunity. As Malin put it, “It’s not about perfection. It’s about progress—and that starts with people.”